SCL

Yeah. why does it have to be an either-Or thing. it should be both. I think the way most churches run on sunday morning can be problematic… i fell like they’re often saying:
“come little children.. take this choice morsel of verbal teaching in and leave with smiles on our face until we see you next sunday”

uhm… so far as i understand it, church is a Community. and communities are interactive AND give and take. Also church shouldnt just be a sermon and music. important yes… but surely we can do things that are a bit more… every day. maybe eat together. or talk… or…?
shipping kids off to sunday school without giving them any real mature talk or chance to integrate with adults (perhaps to even learn what it means to be a woman/man of god by seeing it) can be problematic in the long term me-thinks. shipping them off ALWAYS is to almost say that kids cant teach adults about Gods nature.

I think you’ll be in triple-digit comment land on this one, Jon.

Our church has a fantastic children’s ministry where the sole focus is growing those little hearts into big hearts for God. They even have their own worship time together in the gym (singing many of the same songs the adults sing, plus a “Who’s The King of the Jungle?” type-song or two thrown in), a message/mini-sermon from the director of children’s ministries, and then the kids break into their respective classrooms for more lessons. It’s far more than glorified babysitting, which is one reason we chose our church.

After church, my husband and I make a point to ask and discuss what they learned. They recite their memory verses. We tell them what we learned, too, emphasizing the fact we are still learning new things about God as grown-ups.

Great debate!
There are many moments in life that can be shared as a family, around a Bible, in the woods, in the park… But Church is a time to share with our Christian Family, getting to know other people and teaching our kids to serve, to meet, to reach out to others, outside the family.

My son, now 17, still gets a phone call now and then from a Sunday School teacher he had when he was 4. That’s what Chruch is for, to allow our children to have Christian mentors other than their parents. Let’s recongnize that we need others in the body to help us raise our kids.

Besides, am I the only mother on earth who doesn’t want to spend 24 hours a day with her kids?

Great comment, Yvonne!!!!

And I agree with all of you who say that kids’ church is NOT babysitting. If I was nothing more than the church daycare director, I’d quit my job.

Again, it’s the parent’s prerogative what they want to do with their kids, and I’m not going to spend my valuable time fighting with them about why they don’t bring their kids to kids’ church – I’ve got other kids whose parents DO bring them, and those are the kids I need to concentrate on ministering to.

But if you’re ever in my neck of the woods, I hope you’ll stop by my church, and your kids are always welcome, too. In big church OR kids’ church!!!

I love how our church does it, because kids get the best of both. We have a “childrens talk” where 2-3 lessons are read and there’s a short (10-15 minute) talk that’s geared toward kids under 12. During this portion of the service, kids and parents and everyone else is still in the service. After the childrens talk, kids under 12 all leave for sunday school, and kids 12-15 leave for youth group. Everyone else stays for more lessons and a longer sermon, still based on the texts from the childrens talk. I love having it this way, because families still go to church together.

Did the Hebrews have a children’s service? Was there a “mini-temple” for little kids? I must have missed that in the OT.

Everyone starts out as a child with no indoor voice and questionable personal hygeine.

Most of the comments I’ve read about “big” church dealing with adult issues that have no place in children’s ears are pissing me off. If your church is truly concerned about these issues – then small group (or large group) bible studies for adults should be held to address them. Worship of the Lord is for everyone – kids included.

That said, there’s no reason for churches to not make worship a family friendly environment, and to offer Sunday school and children’s programs that ARE geared to appropriate developmental stages.

I know my Lord already. I also know that these years when my children are small are the BEST and also the hardest time to teach them about my wonderful and loving Savior so that they may know Him too. I am willing to give up some of my Sunday worship attention in order to teach that to my children.
I’m pretty sure God will understand.

Somebody said: Sorry… quit reading comments at the point where a “pastor” called you a cuss word and swore to God. Kind of lost his credibility.

Hope living in that plastic Christian bubble where you never have to encounter real human beings works out for you…

I never thought I would see “the Bible” as a con on anything, but I guess if I broaden my thoughts a little, it would show up on con lists for other things like impatience and fornication…

Personally, I keep my kids with me in the worship service. It’s not that I don’t want to send them to the nursery or children’s church – I’ve been a leader in both of those settings and it worked well. However, as their mother, I feel that for MY children, they are at an age where they are capable of sitting quietly, listening to the pastor, and understanding what is going on. Sure, they may fidget and need a piece of paper to draw on at times, but that’s why we sit at the back of the sanctuary. Although they do partake in their fair share of running around and screaming like banshees at home (and sometimes outside the church), my children are well-behaved and well-disciplined enough that I can fully expect them to sit still and listen. They’re 7, 5, and 4.

I really don’t think there is much I can add to what others have already said. (Especially Leanne – wow, I could not have said it better!)

A great family attended my church for a few months, and then decided they wanted to find one where everyone was always together. This seems to work fine for them, but one would think that a sermon that everyone can understand means it is not very deep. I know that a 5-year-old would have serious trouble understanding one of my pastor’s expository sermons. If he were to “dumb it down” so that a 5-year-old could understand it, I would no longer learn much, if anything. Someone is going to be missing out if everyone is always together. Generally speaking, people have different learning styles as they age. You don’t teach a toddler the same way you teach a teenager, and you don’t teach a teenager the same way you teach someone in their 30s. That’s just life.

That said, children should not be forbidden from church services. If their parents want them in there and make sure they are not distracting anyone else, fine – let them in. That’s why I couldn’t understand why that family left my church – no one disapproved of them bringing their kids in the service. *shrug* I think that, if possible, churches should offer a children’s church option, but parents should be able to take their kids in with them if they so desire.

I’m all for having my daughter in children’s church (or actually nursery at her age) in our church. I think kids are going to actually get something out of it if it’s geared more toward them. They might sit still in big church, but how much are they understanding? That said – I would keep my daughter with me if I was visiting another church.

In my Pastor friend’s church, the kids attend the service until just before the sermon. They have a children’s message and then the children all go to SuperChurch. I thought that was a great idea for a name for children’s church!

I’m just gonna tell you what I see each week. As a volunteer, I lead worship most every saturday night in an “all-age” service in our church. I’d guess 30% of the butts in the pews belong to kids under the age of 12. We have optional child care for 3′s and under. We deliver the same sermon as Sunday, we give the same announcements we have communion and annointing services, hot topics and full out “adult” worship. The kids are totally engaged. We have children alongside adults on worhsip teams, some kids help with percussion, families usher and serve as greeters together. The kids, for the most part, are dialed into the message. From things my kids (9, 12 and 15) say days later I know they are learning and growing. We have families come take communion together, come to the alter together to pray. We see kids come to the alter to pray alone. My son and 9 of his buddies sit in row #2, center section. They cause no distraction. Many of the parents feel as though we are apprenticing our children in worship. We have tons of people who come without kids, and especially the empty nesters say they love to have the children in worship with us and are touched to see them invovled as they are. When “big church” is over…the kids to to an incredbly strong children’s program…just like Sunday morning. Adults can go to adult classes and students go to the youth center. It’s been a lot of work, prayer and inspiration. But all-age worship is working at my church. And church on Saturday night is working too. (that can be another post) I love sunday mornings at my church, but I would not want to go back full time to sundays or “adults only big church.”

Thank you, Amanda and Emily. You both said what I wished to say better than I could. My husband and I have never been a part of a congregation that offered a children’s service, so we have never had to make a decision one way or the other. But, we have talked about it, and came to the same conclusion: our children would be with us during the entire worship service, and attend Sunday School either before or after (depending on when it was offered).

Our 20-year-old daughter and 17-year-old son have been in church with us nearly every week since they were two weeks old, and they can tell you they have only been “taken out” once or twice. They sat quietly (without sippee cups), followed our finger under the words in the bulletin or the hymnal (reading practice), and, when they were still toddlers, nodded off now and then. Now, they aren’t angels, by any means…just kids who know there’s a time and place for everything.

Oh, and a hint that a wise older woman once gave me…Don’t sit in back!!! Sit up front so the kids are “in the middle” of the action – they will be more interested in everything. I hadn’t thought of it before I had kids, but my mind does wander more when I sit in the back of the sanctuary…hummm…

i find it mindboggling that there are such strong opinions on this topic… which is not a salvation issue, i’m quite certain.

must be exhausting to be so right all the time.

i get it, that there are opinions… is the “rightness” that kind of concerns me…

(univeral)you don’t know my church or my kids… so maybe (universal) you… can do what you love to do, without judging those who do it differently.

and don’t say you aren’t judging, either. that’s embarassing. when you take a staunch stance(that’s hard to say) on something like this… you suggest that only you are doing it right…

may we never do this. it’s blech.

and also, can my kids sit with you? they are kind of bugging my world in church… ha

for the record: my kids go to both Bible fellowship(aka sunday school) and big church… they really love it when we’re too late for big church.

As an aunt, who takes her nieces and nephews to church with her and a children’s church teacher, I would say I prefer for children to have their own service, as long as it’s not just “play time”.
I think kids can and should learn about Jesus, but do need to have it on their developmental level. I also think that if my 4 year old can understand the sermon points, the pastor can probably go deeper.
I do however, love having my four year old in communion service with me. I go to an Anglican church and we have communion every week. It’s so awesome to see him learn reverence and ritual, while also getting the chance to tell him how much Jesus loves him and that’s why we do it.

This is fascinating to me because the idea of Sunday School happening during worship is entirely foreign to me. We have Bible classes for adults and children prior to the worship assembly, and there is not another option for children during the worship service.

I grew up knowing to sit still, not to talk, to face the front and not look back at the clock because it was bad manners, etc.. It was a very staid atmosphere. The focus was more on my behavior than on the heart of what was happening in the room.

As an adult, I find my mind wandering all over the place during the sermon and even during the singing. Being in the room and learning to sit still didn’t help me become a better worshipper. Because what was being said from the pulpit wasn’t something I could comprehend, what I learned was to sit quietly and think whatever thoughts my mind wanted to ponder.

To this day, I find it difficult to sit and listen to the preacher and remain focused. I do have great ‘church manners’ though!

As if anyone will read this at #113 …

Just some thoughts from someone who isn’t all or nothing, isn’t an FIC groupie as commenter Amy said, has taught children for 17 years in church, and has four little boys who climb trees, wrestle, fight and sit through church before going to Sunday School:

- The children were present when Moses sprinkled blood on the Israelites as they entered into the covenant – that had to be pretty heavy and yet it was commanded that all be there. Kind of makes you wonder if anyone whined in the middle of the reading of God’s commands? I bet that’s why they didn’t obey. When everyone else was saying, “We will do as the Lord commanded” and getting a blood shower, they were probably wiping little Levi’s nose and missed what they agreed to … because kids are what cause distractions and sin … those little heathens … it was the distracted parents that made that calf you know.

- I wish people wouldn’t assume that children in service equals coloring on Bibles, poking pencils through the chairs, messes, paper crinkling and crying.

- I wish people wouldn’t assume that because some parents don’t have the knowledge of how to teach their children the habit of attention … that all children should be separated from adults.

- I wish people wouldn’t automatically assume that those lacking that knowledge are somehow lesser people … sadly, some people in my circle look down on those who lack knowledge that they attained last year.

- I wish people wouldn’t assume that my children have little to no contact with other adults who love Jesus just because they don’t go to children’s church. We make a point of teaching them how to interact with others of all ages, because that is the body of Christ.

- I wish people would remember that (unless I have my history wrong) Sunday School was originally developed for children who didn’t have believing parents and were not discipled throughout the week by devoted moms and dads. I believe they were actually street children.

- I wish people wouldn’t assume that my children must be angels because they can sit through church.

- I wish people wouldn’t assume that I’m Wondermom just because I took the time to teach my children to sit down and develop a habit of attention.

- I wish people wouldn’t assume that I get nothing out of the service with my eye on my little ones … nor do they.

- I wish people wouldn’t assume that the pastor’s sermon is the only time my children get spiritual input throughout the week, and would stop feeling sorry for my poor, friendless, play-doh-less children.

- Learning to sit comes in handy in other places besides the apparent torture chamber of hearing the word of God … God forbid … NOT ON THEIR LEVEL … such as running errands with mom, being on an airplane, waiting in a doctor’s office without terrorizing everyone present, …

- It isn’t about the amazing holiness of a child who can sit through church without fruit snacks. It’s a lifestyle of bringing our children alongside us, something I wish we did better and something that is our goal. It’s about remembering that children don’t learn as much when they are only spoken to on their level – that children rise to a higher level by being offered a higher level with grace and love and understanding … and allowing English (even big words) to be spoken around them in context. There’s a lot more to it than whether or not Junior has creased pants and doesn’t blow bubbles during the sermon.

from a gal out west

I’m in the middle. I do NOT think it’s appropriate to ban kids from the sanctuary. (I know one local church that does.) I also don’t think it’s appropriate for everyone to bring Jr. into big church.

It’s an individual decision, based on your child and their needs. Their needs should play a HUGE part in where you decide to take your family to church.

It’s just one more of those things that frankly…doesn’t matter. At all.

I have to say that I really appreciate that most churches now have “nursing/cry” rooms, so Mommies don’t have to miss out on solid teaching because their precious one slurps when they eat or because they have farts that rival their father’s.

“My son, now 17, still gets a phone call now and then from a Sunday School teacher he had when he was 4. That’s what Chruch is for, to allow our children to have Christian mentors other than their parents.”
Thank you for sharing that Yvonne. My little brother had someone like that for him when he was little. She bought him his first little Bible and wrote on the inside flap. My mom still has it. She was known as “Miss Betty” and was so very sweet. My brother wouldn’t go to just anybody…only my older brother and Miss Betty (other than my parents) were “good enough” for him when he was little.
Anyways, when my brother died, she had already gone blind, and yet, when she heard about it, she wrote my parents a very lovely letter.
So, what you had to say reminded me of that and how true it is how important someone like that could be in a child’s life.
Thank you. (Tear, tear).

After looking at the number of comments, I thought we were talking about tattoos or drinking again!

I can only speak about our church. And as a pastor, I have mixed thoughts.

One. I love having children in church. I agree with those that see it as a time for children to be with their families.

Two. We do have a great children’s church – separate from Sunday School – that meets during worship service. We have great volunteers that do an incredible job. Although I try my best to keep the cookies on the bottom shelf when preaching, there are a lot of concepts that are hard for children to understand. Age appropriate learning is great.

Three. Children’s music. Part of the Christian heritage is learning all the fun children’s songs. We’re not going to sing Zacheus was a wee little man in worship time, but children need to learn that song!

Four. The distraction angle. I hate to mention this. In my church it isn’t the children, it’s the adults wanting to play with the children. Very rarely is a child out of sorts. But, the adults around them trying to get the children’s attention is pitiful. It’s not the children’s fault or the parents fault.

Miss Hannah is obviously not a teacher….I challenge anyone to go to a (kindergarten!? Try even Grade 8!) classroom and see children sitting in their desks, listening to a teacher lecture them for 30-60 minutes at a time. Doesn’t happen.

As a teacher, I can say definitively that today’s children cannot pay attention to one *activity* (additional empasis on the “active” part–not a lecture) in school for more than 20 minutes. If you let it go beyond that, you’ve lost them. Our culture and the way we raise our kids for instantaneous entertainment and gratification has essentially removed their ability to just be still and quiet. And yeah, my daughter does have to learn it, unfortunately.

Also, a few people have mentioned the unbelievers who may be distracted. No offence to unbelievers, because I love them and want them to be saved, but my main ministry as a mother is to my children. So, yes: My daughter is more important to me than all those unbelievers. I’ve got a charge to keep, and that is to ensure that my children grow up to be mature Christian adults. I covet the salvation of my daughter more than anyone else on this planet, and I think this is right, because God gave her to me for that purpose. I believe that the pattern of the Bible is family worship, and I believe that God will bless bringing our daughter in to worship with us. How can she not benefit from worshipping and communing with God’s people?

Children need to be exposed to the “seedier” side of life, too, and I think the earlier the better–and so much the better in the godly setting of worship with a biblical perspective. It’s *my* job as a mum to bring those things down to her level and teach her. She’s *my* responsibility, not my church’s. I just think that a lot of Christian parents have abdicated a lot of responsibility for raising their own children, and that includes plopping them in a children’s “service”.

And for those people who say their kids hate “big church” and just love “children’s church”, since when should we let our children do just the things they want? Isn’t it our job as parents to determine what’s best for our kids? If you think kids’ church is best, fine…but I don’t think our kids really know yet what’s best for their eternity.

OK so a little late to the party. I think you raise some good points. I thought I’d expand upon the family unity one. As someone without children, I often find kids in church to be distracting and to interfere with worship for those around them. That’s probably mostly my problem, but I come to church to worship and the kid struggling with the candy wrapper and kicking the back of my chair makes that difficult at times. So I guess I would say that if you are bringing your kids to “big church” because you want to be close as a family, then be sure to be close and parent for the sake of those around you.

Of course I find, the discussion of attitude that people experience as Christians without children to be interesting as well.

Great blog by the way I really enjoy it.

1. I’m surprised at how many people underestimate a child’s ability to sit, listen, and learn. I’ve seen it, and very young children can do it. Church shouldn’t be a place of entertainment. Period.

2. I’m surprised at how many people seem to think of children sitting and learning with them in an “adult-only” environment as a burden.

i side with the not taking them to church…but i love that my church has the kids stay for worship witb their families and then they are dismissed to their classes when the sermon starts…they get a little bit of both worlds…and sometimes i think adults should spend some time in sunday school..i play bass for our children’s worship band (yes we have an entire worship service just for the kids and it’s a blaaaaaaast!) and those little guys are like no holds bar when it comes to worship…if they have a booger, they pick it..if they’re tired, they lay face flat on the floor..if they want to jump for Jesus, they jump as high as they can….it’s great

I have seen many variations on this phrase…We do a disservice to our children when we don’t allow them to participate in worship.

Are you folks telling me that the only place to worship is with the adults. Can’t they worship in kids church or anywhere else for that matter?

I think this discussion could go on for years and there still be valid points on either side of the arguement. As someone who doesn’t have children, but has volunteered with kids ministry at a few different churches, I found that the decision has to ultimately be left to the parent without the church leadership making a parent feel awkward about what the parent chooses. I have seen parents really judged for choosing to keep their kids in church with them. I have seen some amazing kids programs, but at the same time, my parents led our childrens church and kicked me out at 10 because they felt I needed to be in adult church. HA!
Where I currently attend, kids stay in during worship and then are dismissed for a lesson on their level. The bulletin each week announces what the kids message will be so that parents can discuss it with their kids later. I think this is a great blend because the kids learn how to behave in church, but aren’t subject to a sermon that will probably be over his or her head.

My 10 year old ‘social specialist’ daughter loves the ‘kids program’ that is geared for her grade level. She excels there.

My 8 year old son likes ‘main church’ with me. This is acceptable to me, and he behaves fine. Before we go in, I say

“Do you have to use the bathroom?

Do you need anything to drink?

Do you want a program and a mint?

Ok, good, you’re all set, now let’s go in.”

So then, he doesn’t ask to leave for anything.

Great questions Jon.

I have noticed that in most Evangelical churches their is the option of “children’s church” and that in Liturgical Churches their is not. I think it has to do with differences of theology behind low church Evangelical worship and Liturgical worship. Hymns and a long sermon vs a short sermon and the Eucharist. It also has to a lot to do with the view of children in Evangelical churches and Liturgical churches. Both would say a person becomes a member of the Church at Baptism, but disagree whether Baptism is appropriate for Children.

Hi Jon,

I will confess that I did not read all these comments, so this might have been covered already. However, I wanted to comment on your question that maybe having children attend big church is going against the command to be more child like. Might you consider that Jesus was referring to a child like spirit? I think that adults and children can both maintain a childlike spirit even when going to big people church. In fact, often times, I see kids in my church singing their little hearts out to God during the worship time and it propels me to be more like them in my worship- to be less afraid of being judged and more honest about my love for Jesus. With all the comments about kids being a distraction in big church, I want to propose that maybe kids could be a positive distraction- a reminder that God created them too and that they also have a relationship with Jesus and that most often, we can learn from them in their simple approach to faith, they willing hearts, and they trusting love of Jesus. I don’t think that having kids go to big church removes the child from them. I think it might actually help us remember to access the child within us. As adults, I think we often become too uptight about our own ideas and views about how things ought to be. I just wanted to give you a different perspective. And, as Tracy mom2many stated, just because Jesus didn’t have a kid as a disciple does not mean that he ever excluded children from his ministry. Maybe the reason a kid wasn’t a disciple has more to do with the kind of life Jesus lived on the road and the fact that it wouldn’t be healthy or advisable for a child to live that kind of a life than it does about the child not being invited into the community of discipleship.

Great post. As a kids pastor I to see things much like you do. I see value in both but lean heavily toward kid focused teaching.

It’s to bad 70% of our teaching in not kid friendly. I don’t think thats the way our Saviour rolled.

I think another big component to take into account is if the parents know how to love their children or not.

Do my kids understand everything they hear during the worship service? No. But they understand a whole lot more than people expect them to. Apparently, I don’t catch everything either because they often mention things later that I missed. And those big words extend the learning for my children, because later they ask what those words mean and then we have these great discussions at home. We don’t have a lot of good discussions about their Sunday School lesson, because it was all “at their level” so there’s nothing left for them to wonder about.

I’ve written about this topic several times. I don’t make blanket statements about what’s best for everyone, but having our children go to church with us has been an amazing blessing for all of us, in many ways I didn’t expect.

Disclaimer: We attend a Family Integrated church, mostly full quiver, average family size 8 (six children), 100% homeschooled. Our families, in addition to their homeschooling Bible activities, would have daily family worship led by the patriarch. We almost never have problems with disruptive children in church; and I don’t recall ever seeing a child taken out to be spanked… perhaps the parents are very discreet. We have a room in the back for ‘nursing mothers and small children’.

One of the main reasons for family integrated churches is to re-form the family… or at least to stop the destruction of that formation by the church. The Biblical family is designed as a body, a body with different members each with different roles, but designed to work together.

The husband/father is meant to serve as the family spiritual leader (‘priest’ in Biblical language). He is meant to be daily teaching the Word to his wife and children, training them in Godliness, and answering their questions on Biblical matters (Chapter and verse suppliable on request).

By dividing the family up into seperate groups, the church destroys this role. The son is being taught by his ‘youth pastor’… who usurps the role of his father. The father may have no idea what he is being taught… and (as all who have children will testify) there is no way for him to adequatly extract that inforation from his children ‘afterwards’.

The Biblical church focuses its efforts on the husband/father. The father is then equipped to lead and guide his family.

One of the most dramatic illustrations of this is in the qualifications for elders. A large portion of the qualifications focus on their role as patriarch. If a man cannot lead his family well, the apostle queries, how can he expect to lead the church of God?!

I have to say I am surprised by how many people find this a difficult topic. I grew up in the Catholic Church. I wasn’t even aware that not taking your children to worship with you was an option. I never heard the term ‘Big Church’ until I had children of my own. I married a Baptist and we attended a Methodist church as a ‘compromise’ early in our marriage. Pretty soon we were teaching children while the other adults were in ‘Big Church.’ So I’ve been on both sides of this equation. I think it’s really pretty simple. Do what’s best for your children. We all learn and process information in our own way. Get to know your child and how he or she learns. For myself, I think it is probably a good idea to keep really small children in a separate environment. However, I think kids should be in ‘Big Church’ well before they join the youth group. I think many congregations do themselves and their children a disservice by keeping them separated for so long. But that’s me and that’s my opinion. I should do what’s right for my family and you should do what’s right for yours.

I strongly believe that children should go to their kids ministry rather than the adult experiences. Now let me say I come from a very biased view point (I work in the kids department at our church). You see, we work hard to package biblical truths in an age appropriate level (starting at age 2) to lead kids to Christ. And yes it is fun!! We can learn about Christ AND have fun at the same time!! Have we as adults forgotten that? I would humbly ask parents, do we want a generation of “good” little children sitting the pews looking nice with their families or do we want a generation of children that actually learn who Christ is in their lives on their age level? I also have a huge issue with kids crying and freaking out during the adult experiences. There are people there that need to hear the gospel and that’s hard to do when little Billy is screaming his head off Plus, I was the kid in church with my parents growing up and I got ZERO out of it because it wasn’t on my level. And for a long time I thought church was completely irrelevant because of my experience. Did I mention I’m opinionated? However, at the end of the day a parent has to do what the Holy Spirit is telling them to do regardless of anyone’s views.

Hello Lori,

Almost Humorous…Are we comparing kids to animals in a petting zoo to kids?

2 Chronicles 20:13

13 All the men of Judah, with their wives and children and little ones, stood there before the LORD.

When the people of Israel appeared before the Lord their children went with them.
When the offered gifts and sacrifices their children usually were by their side.
Their was no "child care"

The Probable Reason

Deuteronomy 6:20
“When your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is the meaning of the testimonies, the statutes, and the judgments which the LORD our God has commanded you?’

From God's View:
Children are a heritage (The only living monument we will leave)

God concern is that, if they are absent they will not remember Him.

God told Malachi:

Malachi 2:15
But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring.

Jesus said in Matthew 19:13-14

13 Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
God apparently wants our children to be with us for the example:

To witness communion service

To witness baptism

To witness testimonies given of lives changed (I know, I know we no longer do that but we once did)

To learn to reverence the Lord's presences during a service.

Ask yourself if God cares about the sound quality of a recorded or video taped service. Or perhaps the entertainment value of the service.

The 30% of "Adult content" that the pastor will cover, the kids will probably get in school any way.

The writer's final error comes from his incorrect assumtion that Sunday School is for kids and not for abults. Sunday School was traditionally ran before morning service. Becauce the older generations new the scripture and christian doctrine couldn't and wouldn't be covered in a 90 minute service.

WOW! 25 years ago such a topic wouldn't even have been taken seriously…

Your's Truly Rick (Sunday School Teacher & Director, Youth Leader and Bible Teacher & father of 4)

you could NOT take a deer in a street fight. i know youre awesome and all, but for real you would get destroyed.

I would humbly ask parents, do we want a generation of “good” little children sitting the pews looking nice with their families

Speaking for myself, I would much rather have a generation of good little children sitting in the pew… and sitting at their parents feet on a daily basis learning about things of the Lord.

Good little children who understand that church is not about them, but about God. That they should be learning about God not from the pastor but from their father and mother.

Research has shown that the average church today (after all of these wonderful innovations) is losing 75% of their children. Whereas homeschoolers (who are in the forefront in objecting to age segregated worship) are keeping 75%+ of theirs.

I have enjoyed many of the posts on this blog and have identified with those strange things we do in the name of worship (hand holding, fake greetings etc.).

However, this post on children in “big church” really got my attention. As a home school family we have debated over the years how our family would worship and what programs we would have our children involved with. We decided that we wanted all our family together for the worship service. We have noticed that it is becoming the trend in most churches for families to be separated for most of the church service, either by children’s church or some other program that is promoted as a way for parents to worship and learn without having to worry about their kids.

It seems to me that most parent’s excuse for wanting their kids seperated stems from their inability to impart loving discipline to their child. Yes, it is possible for your child to sit quietly for the service and even if it does become difficult for you, it is after all just a season of life. Parents, it is your task to train your child, not the program directors or youth ministers . As to those who say that the church service is not appropriate for children, I would reply that this is the problem with the modern church which doesn’t really address the needs of families and has become so feminized that most men/dads are bored silly as well as their kids.

Youth programs/Sunday school/children’s church do little more than entertain kids and do very little to develop them into authentic believers. Sunday schools and youth groups seem to be part of the growing problem whereby 70% of children raised in Christian homes walk away from Christianity by their first year of college (I think it is even earlier than this).

When kids can no longer be excused from the church service to attend the special “program” they find church is boring and not fun. Instead of teaching our kids to be self disciplined, we are contributing to the modern problem where most children and teens brains are so over stimulated by “fun” things that they can’t listen to a 20 minute sermon.

I think the church model should be more like this church: http://www.hofcc.org/ in Troutdale, Oregon that promotes family worship and trains fathers to be the spiritual head of the home.

Children don’t need to be little adults and sit like zombies during the service, there are some great ideas posted in other peoples comments that can help keep your child sitting quietly while observing their parents worshiping God. I think we are falling into the belief that parents can’t raise children without intervention from experts.

Verses such as “Don’t forsake the assembling together…” and Jesus chastising the disciples for not letting the “little ones to come unto me” (the disciples thought that the kiddies would get in the way and be too noisy etc.) seem to indicate to me that we should all be together to worship.

Little kids in big church don’t bother me one bit. What I find annoying is the adults trying to shush them, but making more of a commotion than the kids themselves. Everyone – including the moms and dads – would be better off if they spent their time listening to the sermon and not focused on the kids… (Not talking about when the kids is actually screaming – then by all means just pick them up and take them out.)

And where do you guys get this “teaching children to sit still” thing? Have you ever actually watched a group of ADULTS in church? We don’t sit still and concentrate either. We text, chat, leave to go to the bathroom, read the bulletin during the sermon, look around to see who didn’t make it to church today, etc.

Let’s face it, we are all just big babies who want things our own way.

Voddie Baucham gives an interesting address about the nature of the church that relates to this discussion:

http://www.uu.edu/audio/chapel/fall05/102605.wma

In our family of six children, 3 boys and 3 girls, we have always attended the worship service together. We find it a blessing to find out what the Bible text and hymns will be before Sunday and go over them as a family. We may memorize a key verse, write down key words, write down questions we may have, draw pictures of concepts for the younger ones, etc. Each child takes his journal to church and can take notes or draw pictures for our after- church discussions. We have found that if you consider the age and development of your child and get them ready for Sunday in advance, no one is bored, and we enjoy the lively discussions thath we have together.

As my Grandpa used to say about having his whole family in church, “We all came together, I guess I always figured we should all sit together”

Way late to this discussion, but I wanted to chime in some support and clarification for some points that were mentioned already. If I’m reading through all the comments this late, surely someone else is too.

I personally would completely toss out the, “distracting to non-believers,” argument. While I’m not saying it’s bad for church services to be open and not excluding non-believers, the trend of explicitly catering to non-believers during services (usually at some detriment to mature believers) came about out of our own laziness and cowardice to do God’s will. Instead of service being a communion with believers to refresh and instruct for the week’s mission work, we just lump everything into Sunday and make our only mission to simply invite people to our “seeker-friendly” church.

And in many cases, too, the whole choice between big/little church is too respectful to the world and disrespectful to God. It doesn’t matter that you live in the suburbs, or that Timmy has a 1 PM select youth soccer match on every Sunday; it is not unreasonable to expect a commitment to faithful attendance at a regular worship service and pre/post-service education.

By all means, have a Sunday School, but don’t force it as an either-or with your main worship service.

We don't have a children's church except for the nursery, so my 5 yr old goes to church with me, and then we all go to our different Sunday School classes. It works out fairly well. While yes, she does color or draw or read her bible during the sermon, she's made enough comments that it's obvious she's also listening. And since she goes to a Christian school during the week, which follows the lectionary, she's getting the same scripture at her level in whole-school Chapel services and in "Jesus Time" in her kindergarten classroom-so often, by Sunday, when we've done our time at home, SHE'S taught me what to expect.

Having said that, when there's no Children's program available, or even if there is, I'd appreciate it if the Pastor would put a parental warning on services where they're going to go into detail about, say, Sexual immorality-which isn't something I really want to explain to a 5 yr old who suddenly seems to absorb every single word.

FWIW, we also choose to go to the traditional service, in part because my daughter finds the praise band "too loud", and loves the organ and cantor of the traditional.

As one not to removed from being a kid, I see both sides as well. I remember not getting much out of the sermon as a kindergartener going to Big Church, and even less when I was 10 and I had to look after my 5 year old brother because mom was in the choir. I also cherish the times I spent with my family in church. My church has recently started a cool program where kids in k-5 attend the worship portion of the church service with the adults, then go to a children's sermon during the real sermon. Best of both worlds.

Wow, this was eye-opening. When we last visited churches, I didn't fully realize that all those people who came up and said, "Our children's ministry is right over there, wouldn't you like to try it?" were really saying, "We don't really want your kids here. This is big church for big people." They weren't just trying to be nice. I didn't know. I guess that was naive of me.